Talk:Great Britain

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2023

60% smaller is a meaningless statement, it's either 60% of the size or 40% of the size. 78.146.141.153 (talk) 23:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done - while '60% smaller' can only possibly mean 40% of the size, I have altered the wording for clarity. Tollens (talk) 01:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Since when does any country on the planet define itself in reference to the percentage it is bigger or smaller than another? That sentence comes across as a pointless willy measuring exercise at best. 109.78.145.59 (talk) 19:53, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

These aren't countries, they're islands. It's fairly common to compare sizes of geographical entities. WaggersTALK 10:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Shouldnt be "40 percent" instead of "40 per cent" 2601:285:8000:1C8:2009:7344:160A:B17F (talk) 15:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

No, "per cent" is correct. Put it down to WP:ENGVAR if you like - "percent" might be ok too but there's no reason to change it. 50% means 50 items for every 100 items, "100" is simply changed to "cent" so it becomes "50 per cent"; it doesn't suddenly become a single word. WaggersTALK 10:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2023

Change the population count to 65,034,142 as that is the new data taken from the England and Wales Census 2021 and Scotland’s 2022 Census. Isitreallyharry (talk) 18:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 21:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

"England Island" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect England Island has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 18 § England Island until a consensus is reached. Rusalkii (talk) 22:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2024

There is a mistake in the article. 84.245.80.134 (talk) 05:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 05:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a competition to shove the now archaic term Brytish isles into every single article in Wikipedia?

Wikipedia really needs to take a good look at the use of archaic geopolitical language being pushed by a small number of its editors 31.187.2.87 (talk) 11:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Island vs Term including other islands

@Bbx118, is edit-warring in a map and descriptions that defines Great Britain as all the islands of England, Scotland and Wales. So Anglesey, Orkney, Wight and the island of Great Britain are part of "Great Britain".

Therefore should this article change from primarily "island" to the "political term/archipelago" that covers all of England, Scotland and Wales? Or use both, so "is either" and use a switcher. We can't have a map of not (just) the island then state the lead with "island".

However of their sources cited, Britannica states it as just an "island", while the other two are more likely using it as the political term, especially concerning the olympics where geographic regions don't compete. But these from the same publishers do specify[1][2][3] it as an island (and other islands aren't part of another island) so surely it is primarily an island. However the BBC does class the off-shore as part of GB[4] repeating OS's statement. So is GB not primarily an "island"? Unless Great Britain (island) and Great Britain (term)?

Also "Britain" cannot "commonly" refer to two things right? If it is more commonly referred to one then it is less commonly used for the other? Is "Britain" both commonly used for the UK and the England-Scotland-Wales thing? Would it be better to remove "Britain" from both? DankJae 20:00, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• @User:DankJae, you are trying to revert to information which is NOT IN the citation. I've corrected this, and provided two citation for the correction information.

Please provide a relevant citation, otherwise you are committing vandalism by trying to keep it.

Brittanica states it is the island "and it's islands" (please read the Brittanica citation I provided) complete with an image showing exactly what Great Britain is. What you've written is wrong. The British Ordinance Survey states the same. Both sources have been provided.

Politically, Great Britain is apart of the UK. It is a geographical term. The United Kingdom is the political entity.

Also, "Britain" has been discussed. Various sources (including the BBC and the UK Government) have referred to both the island and the UK as "Britain". There are many instances of a word being used informally for two different things, there are literal wikipedia articles on this. Bbx118 (talk) 20:41, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

@Bbx118, I am merely restoring the status quo in absence of consensus, it is not vandalism. I have linked to some cites specifying island above.

Raised the issue here as a result whether this article should be moved from about the "island" to the "political term". "Great Britain" refers to two different things in either geographic or political contexts, you're prioritising the political definition over its island definition which this article has long focused on. So should we consider "island" the secondary definition?

Britannica specifies as "island", islands don't contain islands. But accept many sources are vague and mixed. Hence the need for other opinions, or this article should remove demote "island".

Once again, yes Britain is used for three meanings, "UK", England-Scotland-Wales or the island, just saying describing "Britain" to commonly refer to the island and then at United Kingdom to refer "commonly" to it, means one is less common then the other? DankJae 20:55, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

You're reverting to a source which does not state what it claims to. You've been advised of this. Repeatedly trying to re-add it is not constructive. Every source currently listed states the island and it's islands, and none state is it the main island only.

As I wrote, the political entity is the United Kingdom. Great Britain is a geographic term.

As I wrote, Brittanica states Great Britain is the island and it's offshore islands, and provides an image showing this. The British Ordinance Survey (which I cited) also states this.

There's no reason to change either the UK article or the GB article as both explain why "Britain" is used. Bbx118 (talk) 21:04, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

If Great Britain is not (primarily) just an island, then the lead should not state "is an island" but as you state "is a geographic term". DankJae 21:06, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Not sure I'm grasping the 'dispute' here but the opening sentence of this article is inconsistent with the leads of the England and Scotland articles which state the respective countries are on the island of Great Britain and x number of islands. (Wales doesn't mention Great Britain in the lead.) So the England and Scotland articles are referring to Great Britain as a single island. The opening sentence of this article implies that Great Britain includes the whole of England, Scotland and Wales, i.e. both the mainland and all islands, thus there is inconsistency across articles. Is this at the heart of the problem? Rupples (talk) 01:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Rupples, the map of the infobox was changed to include the off shore islands, from a map of just the one island. As well as the editor claiming GB actually includes the islands itself, therefore this article should state that Anglesey etc are part of GB? DankJae 08:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Got it, didn't notice the difference until examining the image at a larger size. The article primarily defines Great Britain as the main island so the infobox image should reflect that. The image with the other islands shaded green illustrates the countries, i.e. it represents the alternative (secondary) meaning of Great Britain, defined in the last paragraph of the lead, which has a separate image further down the page. Suggest revising the second part of the opening sentence to "consisting of mainland England, Scotland and Wales", which ties in with the infobox image and gives consistency across articles. Rupples (talk) 09:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, agree that as the article started with island the map should show that (unless a discussion here leads to otherwise). Hence why I reverted back to the green island map, but it was edit warred in. Can the pre-edit war version be restored? (unless there is consensus here to add the political map) as I had changed the infobox while the new map was up. I reverted the map twice.

also open to a switcher if it can be used. DankJae 09:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue here is an island includes it's isles, I can't think of an example of an article where an island excludes it's offshore islets, and the UK Ordinance Survey - which maps the country - states Great Britain is the island and it's islands, and show maps illustrating this. Bbx118 (talk) 11:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My answer is designed to give consistency between the image and text how this article and linked articles stand now. Presumably, you're suggesting the focus of the article is changed, but until that is decided upon the current infobox map should go back to how it was. Rupples (talk) 11:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• When writing any article, we decide what the subject of the article is and then what the title of the article is based on WP:COMMONNAME. We don't start with a title and try to include information relating to every possible connotation of those words. The subject of this article is the island - singular - of Great Britain. The archipelago of which it is part is covered at British Isles. WaggersTALK 09:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

In this particular case it's not including a distinct use. The islands surrounding Great Britain (which is not every island in the wider archipelago) are related to the island, much as the article on Anglesey includes some coverage of Holy Island, Anglesey. Trying to draw a clear line whereby Great Britain as in the island is somehow completely distinct from Great Britain the island and its immediate surroundings isn't how usage works in real life, both in terms of the subject and in terms of the terminology. It makes sense to mention is, that said, the island is going to be the primary focus of the subject, as the main island of Anglesey is for Anglesey. I agree with the end point that the focus should be on the island, but the inclusion of the islands should not be shuttered off as a completely distinct topic. CMD (talk) 10:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree, there's a danger of making a false distinction by being too strict; equally there's a risk of expanding the definition too broadly. I think the important thing is to try and avoid conflating the geographical with the political - for example, describing Great Britain as "all the islands of England, Scotland and Wales" mixes the two and should be avoided. WaggersTALK 11:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The island includes it's offshore islands. The British Ordinance Survey shows us exactly what "Great Britain" is, which is the main island and it's offshore islets. The British Isles includes Ireland, Man, Jersey etc. Bbx118 (talk) 11:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

What do other island articles do? Do they all explicitly say "and the smaller islands around it" or are we usually OK to assume our readers understand that implicitly? WaggersTALK 11:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• The current lead isn't the best, as while it needs to cover both Great Britain the island and Great Britain the political entity it doesn't do a good job of differentiating the two. It could also be made a bit more concise. I'd suggest something like:

Great Britain (commonly shortened to Britain) is the largest island in the British Isles archipelago, which is located in the northern Atlantic Ocean off the north-west coast of continental Europe. With an area of 209,331 km2 (80,823 sq mi) it is the ninth-largest island in the world and the largest in Europe. In [find recent source] it had a population of about [?] million, making it the world’s third-most populous island.

The island is part of the United Kingdom and contains the mainland portions of England, Scotland, and Wales; the capital of the UK, London, is located in the south-east of the island. The term “Great Britain” is also used to refer to the three countries as a single entity, including their offshore islands.

I'm sure it could be improved further, but it makes a clear distinction between the geographic and political uses of 'Great Britain' and establishes the former as the primary topic of the article. A third and fourth paragraph giving a brief overview of the geography and history respectively would be good.

I doubt a split into two articles would work, so establishing the island as the main topic but leaving scope to talk about GB in the political sense seems sensible. A.D.Hope (talk) A.D.Hope (talk) 10:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

As far as I know there isn't a political GB - there's the United Kingdom and the historical Kingdom of Great Britain; in sport there's "Team GB" which is just shorthand for "Great Britain and Northern Ireland"; but there isn't a political entity of Great Britain that includes England, Scotland and Wales but excludes Northern Ireland. Unless I'm missing something, we seem to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. WaggersTALK 11:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with this. Even if we look at the UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement, "Great Britain" is defined as the island and it's isles. You can see an illustration of this here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58790419 Bbx118 (talk) 11:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright then, change the final sentence to 'the term “Great Britain” is also used to refer to the island and its offshore islands as single entity'. This is true, and it establishes that this article is about the single island as opposed to GB and its offshore islands, practically all of which have their own main articles. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue here is that the British Ordinance Survey and UK Government both define Great Britain as the island and it's offshore islands. We should go with the sourced definition in my opinion. I'm not seeing any references to a distinction between a "political entity and the island". Where are we getting this definition from? The British Ordinancy Survey is the national mapping agency in the UK and is a body that deals with geographical mapping, not political entities. Bbx118 (talk) 11:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The OP in the opening comment stated GB is defined as "all the islands of England, Scotland and Wales", which are political entities. I think that's where it came from, and I agree, we need to stick to geographical terms instead when it comes to defining an island. WaggersTALK 11:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Starting from geography, we could account for the relation to politics by noting the island (and associated islands) happens to coincide with England, Scotland, and Wales. This makes it a convenient political shorthand, in that it refers to the UK minus Northern Ireland, which is relevant for things such as the activities of some political parties, railways, the national grid, and others. CMD (talk) 12:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

So @A.D.Hope, @Bbx118, @Chipmunkdavis, @Rupples, @Waggers,

Should we continue using a map including the off-shore islands or a map only on the island? Would consider a switcher but the difference is barely noticeable (but important) due to the zoom. Unless a version with an zoom-in inset is made.

Appears most prefer the political term remains the secondary definition of this article, but should it be expanded and/or moved up in the lead? Rather than the current sentence in the third and last paragraph of the lead?

Open to having it bumped up, similar to A.D.Hope's suggestion. Although not sure what needs to be added, unless naming the extra islands or expanding who uses it for? The first sentence probably should have "mainland" added in reference to the countries. (I'll shelve my concerns over "commonly [...] Britain") DankJae 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd use the island only, but also it seem so small it isn't that important. The "political term" should be integrated into the lead, because it's an extension of the island. CMD (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The demographics section statistics cover the countries, not the mainland of each country. The flora and fauna sections of Geography, judging by the citation titles, probably cover the mainland and islands. This one definitely does.[5]. The map in the link to Geology of Great Britain clearly covers both mainland and islands. Based on this, the 'political' definition should be moved up to the opening paragraph, since large parts of the article cover both. Rupples (talk) 02:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• On the map, the consensus seems to be to treat the 'island-only' definition as the primary one, so let's go with that.

On the lead, I think that the simplest option is simply to give the two definitions without trying to explain who uses which. This leaves us free to use either in the body of the article, according to the source we're using. If I can offer another suggestion, just to give us something to bounce ideas off:

Great Britain (commonly shortened to Britain) is the largest island in the British Isles archipelago, which is located in the northern Atlantic Ocean off the north-west coast of continental Europe. The island is part of the United Kingdom and is divided between three of its constituent countries: England, Scotland, and Wales. The term “Great Britain” is also used to refer to the three countries, including their offshore islands, as single entity.

With an area of 209,331 kilometres square (80,823 square miles) it is the ninth-largest island in the world and the largest in Europe. In [find recent source] it had a population of about [?] million, making it the world’s third-most populous island.

A.D.Hope (talk) 10:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)